Words by David C. Obenour
Traversing decades of performing together, apart, and under the influence of others, the Matthew Shipp Trio as it stands has arrived on New Concepts in Piano Trio Jazz. Comprised of Matthew Shipp on piano, Michael Bisio on bass, and Newman Taylor Baker on drums, this latest collection of songs reaches further into the cosmos – overlapping the orbits of jazz, classical, ambient, avant, and even electronic – despite its analog composition. With the help of producer and ESP-Disk’ label manager, Steve Holtje, the music has transcended – free of the fingerprints from its creators while only possible because of their seamless fusion.
Off Shelf: This album really got me thinking about trios. Can you talk about what you like about this format? What strengths does it have in terms of what it can bring to the songs? What limitations that might lead to different strengths?
Matthew Shipp: The piano trio is a fundamental unit in jazz that has been done so many times. I am aiming at creating a sound sculpture that is not so much a “jazz trio” but more in line with my vision of cosmic music. The strengths of any group are of its members not the instrumentation. I like to think that we maximized the strength of each individual musician and found a holistic way to fit it together to create the sound object.
OS: Separating it out, it feels like the role of the bass changes significantly in a trio – helping accompany both the piano and drums in different ways than it might in a larger ensemble. Can you talk about some of how your approach differs here?
Michael Bisio: There is a cosmic flow we three have nurtured for over a decade. Matthew and I are moving into our sixteenth year as two thirds of MS3. Newman and I first played music together around 1999 or 2000 as part of Diedre Murray’s chamber opera Running Man. The connections are deep. New Concepts in Piano Trio Jazz is a cosmological highpoint in flow and connection. Like a harmonic singer, we are three voices simultaneously emerging from a single source creating something much larger.
That being said, it is inherent as a bassist to function. I love that role! However, function is defined with an infinitely broader sense of palette, shape and pulse in MS3. Many times a bassist is called “the anchor,” as a compliment. I get it and can even appreciate it. In some way it is descriptive. My truth is; the last thing I want to be is a giant chuck of metal that prohibits forward motion. I prefer to consider myself a carpet and at my best, a magic carpet. For clarity I am including the definition from my Dictionary program that “a magic carpet, also called a flyingcarpet, is a legendary carpet. It is typically used as a form of transportation and can quickly or instantaneously carry its user(s) to their destination”.
MS: In this recording for each section I gave somewhat specific instructions that defined a role for the bass and all the instruments in the trio. I’ve been looking for shorter phrases, more space / less density, and a flow that is a refined tape loop but trying to get away from the aggression that is thought of in “free jazz.”
Roles shift from piece to piece. In certain pieces an instrument should be the glue, in others a certain instrument should take the lead, in other pieces a certain instrument should have a purely supportive role. Whatever is in the service of the music for that piece to make it work for the gesture it is supposed to be.
Steve Holtje: As the producer of the session, I’d like to mention when Matthew says tape loop what he means is the effect of a tape loop. There was no electronic – or tape looping [laughs]. Just playing in real time that gives the effect of a loop. Just wanted to make sure that’s clear!
OS: I really love how the bass and piano interplay on the leads – can you talk about how you think of each other’s playing? The strengths they embody and how it invites you to interplay.
MB: That part seems to have been in place from the our first note. I honestly never question it. All three of us can trust we will be were and when we are needed. After that, all things are possible. It probably helps that we’ve had similar trajectories in this music. We certainly share aesthetics but still, my favorite part is the trust.
MS: There are a lot of trio CDs plus a few duo CDs so at this point I am trying to refine the interplay to nuanced degrees. I wrap myself around the bass and phrase off of an underlining pulse. What I think makes this album stand out is that there is a concentration of the gesture of each piece that we keep focused on.
On “Sea Song,” in regards to the bass and piano interaction, keeping the phrases short and having rests and breathing spaces makes this cut special. On “Non circle” we are phrasing both together and apart, but we are relating in counterpoint to phrases from the drums – and that is foundational to the tune, not something that happens in the middle of a free jazz excursion. On “Brain System” that is driven by the bowed bass with the beauty of Bisio’s tone driving that piece – and it is a texture change in the middle of this suite. It feels effective to me because there is no bow on the first four cuts and it brings in an orchestral element in a CD that up to that dealt more with elements of restraint to create ruptures in phrasing that therefore create a different flow.
Of course, on “The Function” the bass is a traditional bed and foundation that allows the piano and drums to go off in different tangents and create a whole different type of piece that has traditional elements but also sounds different.
OS: I imagine that shifting role for the bass also changes how a drummer plays with both performers and the songs. Can you talk about some of the different considerations toward percussion and rhythm here?
MS: Newman, besides being a great jazz drummer, is a classical percussionists. So some of the pieces were structured around the drums being the driving force but not in the sense that you think of “drive”. In “Sea Song,” his ocean like backdrop is the impetus for the bass and the piano to tape loop and seesaw off short phrases that builds to create this piece. On “Non Circle” the bass and piano feed off the patterns generated by the drums to make a counterpoint. Elsewhere, I rely on the organic mixture that Newman has between the jazz drummer approach and his percussionist instincts.
Newman Taylor Baker: Playing with Matthew and Michael is such an honor and privilege. I get to use all of my musical knowledge and experience in the creation of my voice in the music we create. I also have the freedom to be a composer as I play. I listen and play what I think is appropriate. Matthew has never asked me to play a specific thing. [As an example] for Sea Song, he said the piece was about the sea and calm. I chose to use brushes, and I chose to use very light pressure as I slowly moved around the rim area of the snare drum. For me, it creates a beautiful sound that can only be made at a very low volume. Since it was a recording, I felt the volume could be raised after the recording, making this unique sound accessible to the listener. The result was close to what I imagined, an opportunity to show the quiet beauty of the snare drum.
OS: I think sometimes I also forget that the piano is a mix of a percussive and stringed instrument. Do you ever find that it as an instrument can provide a unique rhythmic accompaniment that you might not get from other lead instruments?
MS: I think in terms of the concept and not what the instrument does in the hands of other people who have played it before.
OS: You describe this album as light years ahead of World Construct. Can you unpack that? To you, what about New Concepts… reaches so far beyond?
NTB: The musical journey evolved and matured with World Construct setting a new level. It had independent yet sophisticated connected voices, with changing roles among the instruments. Still, there was one long journey or story with different sections. My sense of New Concepts in Piano Trio Jazz is as a volume of separate essays with a common thread. All composed in the moment, as we do all of our performances and recordings.
MS: I would say that I keep trying to move into an area where the pureness of the concept is what comes across and not our playing. The martial artist, Bruce Lee was once asked what his technical goals were and he responded to have no technique. I am trying to get the trio to the point where a profound cosmic concept comes across but where the audience does not come away saying, “Wow, those guys can really play their instruments.” I think this album really makes progress in that regard.
OS: You also said this might be the last trio album because you don’t feel like you have anywhere else to go from here. Do you still feel that way? Is there a competition with your own catalog? Can different be an evolution too or do you think of it more in terms of better or maybe even more original?
MS: I am not sure on this. New Concepts… does feel like an ultimate to me. If a space opened up with more nuance and more open spaces perhaps… but for now New Concepts… is the driving force.
OS: Have the live performances given you any further insight to the music of New Concepts…? Does the relationship continue to evolve – if so, in what ways does the performance change your understanding?
NTB: Our performance at the 2024 Vision Festival was the first time we had a setlist. It was the tracks of New Concepts in Piano Trio Jazz as they appear on the CD. We were not intent on recreating the CD. Each track has a character or vibe that we wanted to maintain. At the end of the performance, the warm appreciation the audience expressed was evidence of our success. For me, our evolution continues.
MS: The performance at the Vision Festival was great and different. I think we can milk this for a while and come up with different things but keep the structure of the album… it has given a focus to live gigs. For a while we where doing completely open form at concerts but I started feeling it was getting bogged down a bit even though I feel most of those performances were great. But as fresh as we are supposed to be I felt a few of our performances, for a few short spans of time, might have got caught up in some of the indulgences that can happen in completely open form free jazz. I used to use a bunch of my tunes and intersperse that with a lot of free improv, then I went one hundred percent to the open form. I think using the outline from the CD really will create a whole new area of construction on stage.
OS: The piano lead right at the start of “Primal Poem” hits me each time it circles back. To me anyway, it conveyed such depth of emotion in such a limited space. Can you talk about some of your inspiration inside of that song?
MS: Thanks for this. I do think a short motif or a series of short motifs can convey everything there is to convey. Complexity for complexity sake means nothing to me. Beauty is “primal,” it is at the root of any harmonious situation. The motif is a strand of thought or emotion, trying to reach to a simple elegance. I have heard someone refer to it as jazz-[Erik]Satie but anyway, it is a simple dream-like poetic statement.
OS: Starting from there and getting all the way to “Coherent System,” the sequencing of New Concepts… also strikes me as particularly inspired. Can you talk about the flow of the album and what you consider in constructing it?
MB: I will say Matthew is a master of sequence. He comes into the studio with the concept as well as the sequence in place. I have learned a great deal from being in the studio with him. You can use this or not, I just want you to know how awesome he is and I appreciate that you got it!
MS: It is a building up of a brain or a mind from a simple seed, “Primal Poem” to the finale of “Coherent System” which brings everything together in a grand organism. The identities of each instrument is played with in different ways in all the pieces. Different functional aspects of the roles of instruments are inverted at different times – a very nuanced sense of phrasing is explored throughout the album and there is a classical suite-like sensibility of building to the final movement.
SH: I’ve produced all four of the trio’s ESP-Disk’ releases and it really is special how Matthew arrives at the studio with the whole session/album plotted out in terms of the style and mood of each track, in order. The arcs of the albums adhere to a plan that always climaxes wonderfully in a track that ties everything together.
There are many things that inspired me, in the studio immediately after the session was finished, to name the album New Concepts in Piano Trio Jazz. It’s partly for this session in particular but also how the concept has developed in the course of those four albums. The way the albums are structured, the almost narrative flow of them, is not something I’ve heard other piano trios do – it’s much more of a classical-music approach, but done in a jazz/improvisational way. Within each individual track, there are also many elements that come from outside jazz – not just classical, but also perhaps unexpected styles, including ambient music – but always in a fresh new way that is organically related to the particular jazz lineages of Shipp, Bisio, and Baker. Of course, there are aspects of the music that sound familiar to jazz listeners, which accounts for the reviews that disbelieve the truth of the album’s title, but I genuinely believe that no other trio in jazz history has ever sounded like this group, and also that this album takes what they’ve created together to its highest level… so far.